The strategic picture looking forward

In a front page post entitled "Pennsylvania Forward," Jerome argues that Obama has had three shots to close out Clinton and has failed each time.  My response follows:  

Jerome's piece should be seen for what it is: an "advocacy" piece rather than a piece of solid "analysis."

For weeks, Jerome has been telling us that it is "all about the delegates" and that momentum was highly overrated.  Now that his preferred establishment candidate is badly behind in pledged delegates and has lost half of her lead with the super-delegates, we are supposed to believe that it is now "all about her momentum."  With all due respect for Jerome's very significant contributions to the progressive cause, this is 90% spin.

Jerome was right the first time, ultimately this race comes down to delegates on the floor in Denver.  He is also right that Clinton has the upper hand in Pennsylvania.  But trying to turn PA into a make or break primary seems arbitrary. There are twelve states to go, what makes PA the only one that matters.  I suspect that the effort to elevate PA to make or break status is simply because it is the last big state that looks favorable to Clinton.  HRC got a couple of big news cycles out of Ohio and Texas, but the press is starting to catch on to the fact that she picked up a total of only about 6 or 7 delegates, while the pool of available pledged delegates shrank by over a third.  

Bottom Line: she is running out of time and states to catch up.  Obama is likely to match her net increase from OH and TX in WY and MS next week.  The pattern remains stable: Clinton wins narrowly in big states with large blue collar and/or Hispanic populations, but Obama wins by large majorities in most of the other states (except border states with small AA populations)

In part, Obama's winning streak can be chalked up to momentum,  but more important was demographics.  What stopped Obama was not an "inability to close the deal."  What stopped Obama was fighting on unfavorable turf while receiving a great deal of unfavorable press. He cut her led in half in Ohio and by three-quarters in Texas.

The turf will change and the press coverage will evolve.  I expect Obama to win in WY and MS.  He will probably loose by a few in PA, but it is hard to see how that will save her campaign.  Obama should win in NC.  Indiana is probably a jump ball that will be determined by the overall momentum at that point.  OR, MT, SD are all likely Obama territory.  Jerome's assertion that Oregon is up for grabs is only true if HRC has a huge head of stem coming into this state, which seems unlikely looking at the calendar.

By the time we get through the currently scheduled primaries, the most likely scenario based on the demographics of the remaining states is that Obama's pledged delegate lead will be about where it is now or a bit bigger.  If this is the case, the supers will start coalescing around Obama.

Florida and Michigan are wild cards.  On one hand both of these states have demographics that appear to favor Clinton.  However, I think it is questionable whether or not the proposed re-votes will ever take place.  First, there are real logistical and financial issues.  Clinton can not afford to compete in caucuses and the state parties can not afford primaries.

More importantly, I suspect that Clinton is doing the same math I am doing, and realizing that re-votes are unlikely to yield enough delegates for her to catch Obama.  The only way she can catch him is by managing to seat the current "as is" delegations. Unless she far exceeds her expected performance in the remaining primaries, and wins over two thirds of the remaining unpledged super delegates, she will not have the votes to win a floor fight.  

Most importantly, if she has to seat these illegitimate delegations based on elections where the candidates did not campaign, and where Obama did not even appear on the ballot, she will fracture the party.  As I have said in several threads, "if this is the only way she can win it, it will not be worth having."  Many Dems will defect to McCain, many will protest by voting for Nader, and many will simply stay home.  Given her high negatives, Clinton can ill afford any drop in Dem base turn-out. A fractured party would almost certainly result in a McCain victory in November, and in disaster for down-ballot Dems.

I simply do not see the math adding up for Clinton, unless Obama has a melt down and starts loosing his base demographic groups.  If she just continues to hold her own demographic groups, she is not going to get there.  Obama may not be able to kill HRC in PA, but likewise she was no clear way to stop his steady progress towards the nomination.



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Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

Great post despite the spelling errors (just kidding).

The problem Obama faces is that if Hillary rolls him in PA and FL like she did in OH, that could well give her the lead in total votes cast in the Democratic primary.  An Obama victory at that point, while totally within the rules of the process, would have an illegitimate "feel" to it.  That would not be good for the Democrats.  Alternatively, if Hillary continues winning, but comes up short in the delegate, I could see giving her the nomination, but it would again have an illegitimate feel to it since it would go against the party rules.

At that point, a unity ticket would make sense.  The problem is that they both have pretty good arguments for why they should be at the top of the ticket: Obama has the delegates, Hillary has the big blue states.

The greatest irony in all of this is that the DNC will probably end up allowing FL & MI to re-vote.  I think Obama would carry MI and Clinton would carry FL.  And the whole thing will be a wash in the end.


by the mollusk on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:53:20 PM EST

Re: I think it is clear who should be on top (none / 0)

Thanks for the response.  Even with a re-vote in FL and MI it is hard to see her making up a 600,000 vote margin. Especially given that whatever she wins in PA will likely be offset by MI and NC.  She is only ahead by a few thousand even if you count MI with Obama receiving ZERO votes.

He is ahead in pledged delegates.

He is ahead in total delegates.

He is ahead in popular vote.

He is ahead in states won.

He is ahead in national polls vs Clinton.

He is running better in head-to-head trials with McCain

He is tied in Congressional SD

The only category she leads is DNC SD.

Unless the dynamic changes, it seems clear to me who should be on top of the ticket.

Think about coattails and Dem base turn-out.  Obama is much better for down-ballot Dems.


by upper left on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:08:56 PM EST
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Re: I think it is clear who should be on top (none / 0)

You are of course, assuming that the SD's that aligned with him, stay with him, even as she racks up another big state win and has the momentum.


by cmugirl90 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:11:33 PM EST
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Re: I think it is clear who should be on top (none / 0)

You are of course assuming that she will win, and win by enough to change the dynamic.

You are also assuming that he will not continue to win additional SDs during the next seven weeks before the PA vote.  As SD fully realize the math and that she has no real path to the nomination that does not involve re-vote in June or a deeply divisive Credentials fight, I  think they will continue to trickle over.


by upper left on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:37:15 PM EST
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Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

Who knows what will happen once people discover how the Clintons have been making their money the last eight years?

There's a lot that will be coming out in the coming weeks.  Anyone who knows anything who is not happy about the Clintons back in the White House will be coming forward.

If she doesn't release the tax returns in about a week, her image as secretive and manipulative will re-emerge.  If she does release them, there will be nuggets galore.

This is not a complicated issue.  It's one every citizen can understand.  And calling the Obama campaign "like Ken Starr" only pisses people off -  including superdelegates, who are scared to death of another round of Clinton scandals.

If Obama's campaign is so much on the ropes, then how come he keeps picking up superdelegates and Clinton has not?  


by mainelib on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:04:36 PM EST

Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

You have a point, but I am not counting on the MSM.  The Clintons seem to have their fingers in a lot of pies.  

It was amazing how the entire media responded to her accusation that she was getting "unfair" treatment. The reason she was getting some negative press is because she has been running a highly negative campaign.  Hopefully the media will realize that in Obama's words she has been "working the refs," and get back to work.


by upper left on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:42:43 PM EST
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Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

While it's possible that Obama will, as you suggest, "lose by a few," in PA, I think a much more likely outcome is a 15 point win by Clinton.  PA is supposedly similar to Ohio and New Jersey, and Clinton won each by 10-12 point margins.  And each of those allowed unaffiliated (New Jersey) or independent and Republican (Ohio) voters to participate in the Democratic Primary.  PA, in turn, only allows Democrats -- and, according to exit polls, Clinton won among Democrats in Ohio by 16-18 points.

PA will also receive a huge amount of attention, after a build-up of six weeks with no other votes.  What then would a 15 point win in PA do to Hillary's and Barack's momentum as the race goes on in other states, for super delegates, and in the battle to seat Michigan and Florida delegates?  If Hillary gets a huge boost of momentum out of PA and then continues to outperform Obama in the remaining states, I consider it highly likely that a powerful group of super delegates (think Al Gore, John Edwards) would step in and say to Barack that it's time to accept the vice-presidency for the good of the party and that they are thus throwing their support to Hillary and also backing a plan to seat the Florida and Michigan delegates.

To refer to an analogy used by others, it may be true on football that you can be up 28 to 7 in the first half and then hang on to a 35-34 point victory, but it's unlikely to occur in the Democratic nominating process when there are a bunch of super delegates that can add a few extra points to either candidates, and are much more likely to reward the candidate with a strong second half performance (including victories in all of  the three major second-half states and most of the major first-half states)

Of course all of this depends on Hillary winning big in PA.  Let's see what happens there.


by markjay on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:06:04 PM EST

Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

The polls in PA already show the race at under ten percent.  

You are suggesting that she will exceed her polls going in.  I cannot think of a single state where that has happened.  

The pattern has been that the more time Obama has, the better he does.  He has not had this much time in any place since Iowa.


by upper left on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:13:50 PM EST
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Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

Actually, the most recent poll shows her with a 15-point margin:
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_c ontent/politics/election_20082/2008_pres idential_election/pennsylvania/pennsylva nia_democratic_presidential_primary

He has gone up and up on polls until he became the prohibitive frontrunner, with 11 straight wins and momentum going into Ohio and Texas.  Then over the last week he has taken a tumble in national and state polls. You seem to believe that if he spends more time and money in PA that will change.  I don't think it will.  Time will tell.

I think everyone would agree that if Obama beats Hillary in PA he will again become the prohibitive favorite.  However, if he loses to her there, everything is up for grabs.  And even if Hillary underperforms and only wins by 6-10 instead of 15, that's still a solid victory in a major state.  But I would contend that a 10+ point victory by Clinton is far more likely than any victory at all by Obama.


by markjay on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:22:01 PM EST
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Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

Quinnipiac had it at 6%.  I had not seen the new Rasmussen which shows a bounce for her.

I think my point still stands:

He cut Ohio from -22% to -10%

He cut Texas from -15% to -4%

He took Wisconsin from +4% to +17%

The pattern has been the same every where so far.  It is conceivable that something new will happen in PA, but the pattern has been very strong, and the more time he has the better he does.


by upper left on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:32:49 PM EST
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Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

I think your scenario is possible if she beats him by a huge margin as you suggest. I just don't see it happening.  

Think Iowa and Wisconsin, both have demographics that are not overwhelmingly favorable to Obama and yet he did very well.  I find it hard to believe that Edwards and Gore are secretely pining to hand the nomination to HRC.  They each have strong reasons to want to "turn the page," but I think neither want to burn their bridges in the event of a Clinton victory.  


by upper left on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:22:01 PM EST
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Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

Let's say she nets 8 delegates out of PA.  Heck, let's be generous and say 10.

Well guess what happens then?  Obama likely erases that with a 5-10 delegate pickup in Indiana and North Carolina.

I think the better analogy is baseball.

Consider each primary/caucus an inning.  Only instead of a normal baseball inning, where you can theoretically make up any sized deficit in runs during any one inning - there is a very limited amount of "gain" that any candidate can get in any one proportional vote primary/caucus.

There simply aren't enough innings for Clinton to catch up.


by goodnbad on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:27:41 PM EST
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Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

I would add to your point, that if that happens and Edwards and Gore stepped in, Edwards may release his delegates / encourage his delegates/ endorse her. It wouldn't be much, but it would add to her total.


by cmugirl90 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:09:50 PM EST

Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

I don't think Gore will risk having his credibility damaged by supporting either Obama or Clinton for the nomination.  Right now Gore has a cause which is larger than the 2012 race, so I'm not sure he would endorse even in the General.  If he endorses someone and they lose, that is a setback for his cause.


by the mollusk on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:48:19 PM EST
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Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

Jerome is so in the tank for Clinton its getting a bit funny, I mean I could buy that  his predictons were just off, but this bit of "analysis" is as you pointed out 180 degrees different from what he was talking about just a week ago. Additionally, I love the whole PA is the end thing, given that there's a state just two weeks after PA that's nearly as large and is far more favorable to Obama (NC) if PA is a test for Obama, I think NC is a test for Clinton-- if she can't win NC than why should the SDs believe she will get the AA support necessary to win the general election, honestly from what I've heard (of african american radio stations and from blogs)there is a significant percentage of the African American vote that will simply sit out (or perhaps protest vote McKinney) if Obama is ahead in elected delegates and robbed of the nomination-- this will quite simply destroy the Democratic party. It is not said often enough but without massive African American turnout we will be a permanent minority party.


by Socraticsilence on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:11:51 PM EST

Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

On Tuesday night I wrote a Diary entitled "Hillary Tactical Brilliance and Strategic Blindness" (if you want to read it just click on my name).

I argued that the only way she can win it is in a way that will tear the party apart.  It would be a Pyrrhic victory for her, and a disaster for down-ballot Dems and the party.


by upper left on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:26:34 PM EST
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Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

AA's will not vote for clinton if it she is handed the nomination although behind in pledged delegates.  


by highgrade on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:29:59 PM EST
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Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

Exactly, for some reason this the demographic that is always taken for granted, I mean there's this thought I guess that Bill can show up at a few Black Churches, do his little "I feel your pain" spiel and African Americans will fall in line. Well, I'm sorry look at Georgia-- Clinton did his schtick, Hillary had the backing of every major African American political figure, and guess what she got 10%.


by Socraticsilence on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:35:49 PM EST
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Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

Hell, she will not get my vote if she wins it by seating the incredibly undemocratic delegations form MI and FL. Who ever heard of an election where the candidates aren't allowed to campaign, and where one of the candidates is not even on the ballot?  This is a coup d'etat.

At this point, I think I would cast a protest vote for Nader.  I will not abide that kind of bullshit, and I am a 50 year old white male.


by upper left on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:50:39 PM EST
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Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

If Clinton wins the popular vote, then the superdelegates should give her the nomination and she should put Obama on the ticket.

How can you have a nominee who had less people go out and vote for him than his opponent?

Delegates aren't as democratic as the popular vote.

Obama has failed to win any big state except his home state, this is with a huge fundraising advantage, the press behind him and lots of momentum.

If every state held a primary rather than a caucus, then Obama wouldn't even still be in the race.


by liberalj on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 04:12:40 PM EST

Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

Yes, but he has run up huge margins in many midsized states, and the popular vote totals understate his support because of lower turn-out in many of the caucus state.

In any case, I am largely willing to accept your standard.  At the moment Obama leads by about 600,000 votes in total popular vote which is about 2.5% of votes cast. It is close, but he is ahead.  She cut his lead by approximately 300,000 on Ohio and Texas.  If she won decisively in PA and in re-votes in FL and MI she could probably catch him.  She would also need to keep it close in places like MS, NC, OR.  If she does not, I think he should be the nominee.


by upper left on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 05:42:30 PM EST
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Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

The latest poll i've seen from NC has a 4pt Obama lead, a lot closer than expected.

I count Florida but not Michigan in the popular vote total. She's a few hundred thousand short.

I think there also needs to be a do over in FL and MI.

If Clinton can win PA, IN, KT, WV, Puerto Rico and OR then she'll be ahead in the popular vote i expect and i think the supers will fall to her so long as she offers Obama the VP slot.


by liberalj on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 06:24:57 PM EST
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Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

We will see.  Obama has outperformed the early polls everywhere he has had time to campaign.

I think many folks take it as a given that HRC would win a re-vote in MI.  I am not so sure.  MIhas a larger AA population and a lot fewer Ohio river valley, pseodo-southern whites.

I have been around Oregon politics for a long, long time.  I think this is definitely Obama territory.  I will be surprised if he doesn't win here by at least 10%.  The grassroots support for Obama is very, very impressive.

It is going to be interesting.


by upper left on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:19:26 AM EST
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Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

I think you're right about MI, i think she'd win but i dont see it as a cakewalk for her.

Since Obama has been fighting against giving MI and FL their delegations or a do over, that gives Hillary a powerful argument against him in those states. I think he'd lose Florida even more heavily next time, but come closer in MI.

I don't know much about Oregon politics, and i dont expect her to win but if she does win there or somewhere else unexpected like Montana she's on her way.


by liberalj on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:28:52 PM EST
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Re: The strategic picture looking forward (none / 0)

He has not been fighting re-votes.  He and his campaign have said it is up to the state parties and the DND.  He has said he will play by whatever rules they establish.  What he is fighting is seating the current illegitimate delegations.

If you think I am wrong please give me a link or direction to wherever you got this (mis) information.


by upper left on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 11:44:41 AM EST
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