Mea Culpa

I was wrong.  Like most of the world I was completely blown away by Clinton's "out of no where" victory."  Now that I have had a few hours of sleep and enough time to remove a very large quantity of egg from my face, a few thoughts about amateur punditry, advocacy, and about the race from here.

What a night!????!  I can't remember a time when so many polls were so wrong.  This was not like 2ooo and 2oo4 where it looked like Kerry and Gore were going to win very narrow victories and ended up loosing even more narrowly.  This was a complete stunner, I don't think anybody saw this coming.  Just off the top of my head, I think two things probably happened:

1) I think some of the indies who would have voted for Obama, thought he was a sure winner and decided to vote strategically for McCain.

2) I think HRC's show of emotion and passion had a huge impact on the women's vote.  Identity politics are very powerful.  People of any group, particularly a group that has been subjected to a long history of oppression, don't like seeing one of their own get kicked around.  In that one moment, Hillary addressed her biggest problem as a candidate, her lack of authenticity.  She came across as very human, someone both passionate and vulnerable.  I suspect that a lot of women said, "I don't want to see her humiliated, so I will vote for HRC."

I don't in any way want to criticize the people (primarily women) who may have made this decision.  I think it is natural.  You see one of your own in trouble and you try to do what you can to help.  I suspect that most of these women were either on the fence already or were low information voters who relate more to personality than to policy.  

My analysis is based entirely on conjecture; it may be total bull.  I look forward to hearing others thoughts.

Regardless of why the lightening struck, it did strike, and the question is where does this leave us?

More below the fold.

I suspect that we are in for a dog fight.

Both Clinton and Obama have built very powerful campaigns with highly competent people.  They have both shown that they can raise a ton of money. They both have crafted strong messages that have both rational and emotional power.  They both represent historic firsts that have great symbolic and identity power.

Each has advantages.  Clinton's "identity base" among women is much larger than Obama's base among AAs.  Because women are a majority within the Dem party, even a small gender gap of a few percentage points translates into a large number of votes.  It remains to be seen how AA voters will respond to Obama's candidacy.  Obama needs to win substantial majorities.  We will see.

Clinton also has a huge advantage in terms of connections and institutional support.  She and BC have deep roots in the Dem base throughout the country.  She is the candidate of the Dem establishment.  Having won NH she has slowed the rush of defections among the Dem establishment.  If the nomination comes down to a grind-it-out delegate count, Clinton has the inside track.

On the other hand, IMHO, Obama has an advantage when it comes to message.  This has become an election primarily about change.  Obama both symbolically and substantively better represents change.  Clinton is a restoration candidate in a change election.  She is working hard to find a way to argue that she is the candidate who can best deliver change, but this message is inherently complicated and internally inconsistent.

In many ways, I think it comes down to a race about doubts.  Clinton will try to raise doubts about whether or not Obama can keep the country safe and whether he can deliver the change he promises.  At the same time, she must overcome the voter's doubts about her "authenticity, like-ability, and trustworthiness."  Obama has to overcome doubts about his readiness, his grasp of policy, and his ability to stand up to the Republicans.

Obama needs to win Nevada, if he can, I think it will help him overcome the doubts of AA voters and he will steamroll Clinton in SC.  If he can regain his Iowa momentum, NH will look like an aberration.  Obama needs momentum to overcome Clinton's name familiarity and institutional advantages on Feb 5th.

Florida is a wild card. Can Clinton afford to violate her promise not to campaign there?  If she does, can Obama afford to stay out?  I don't know.

I see California as huge.  I general, as an Oregonian, I think the west coast will be very receptive to Obama's message and receptive to the symbolic image of a multi-cultural President.

It is going to be an interesting month.  If I were betting, I would give a slight edge to Clinton, but I won't be surprised to see it go either way.

On a personal note, again, I was wrong.  I thought Obama would get a big bounce out of Iowa and that he would build so much momentum that HRC could not stop him.  The women of NH had other ideas. Pride goes before the fall.  I think many in the JE and HRC camps have badly underestimated Obama and almost willfully misconstrued his candidacy.  I will try to be a bit more humble in my comments, and I hope that others will join me in this effort.

I have strong reasons for supporting Obama, based on personal experience, ideology, and my perception of how to build the Democratic party and achieve change.  I realize that others have different ideas and experiences and are just as passionate in their opinions as am I.  

I hope to apply a little of the wisdom that my grandmother taught me, "always treat others with the respect that you wish to recieve."  A generous application of the Golden Rule would really improve the atmosphers around here, and would in the long run help our common cause. On to victory in November!



Display:


Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

Thanks for a nice diary.  I think a serving of humble pie all around has been good for people in general and is probably good for the state of discussion.  Of course, as an Edwards supporter, I am still holding out for my 15 minutes of inevitability so I can take my turn taunting everyone.

I agree that it is now a close race and is likely to remain that way.  My view is that a lot of it comes down to Obama's turnout model and whether he is successful in continuing to turn out huge numbers of young people and first-time voters.  While no one questions that he is an inspiring candidate, I had my doubts about his ability to sustain what he did in Iowa simply because you don't get to spend 6 months and tens of millions organizing your GOTV in every state (unfortunately).  It will be interesting to see what happens, particularly in the bigger states where you have to rely so much on TV.  If Obama keeps getting out the first-timers that's great news for the party.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:32:50 AM EST

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

Thanks for a nice reply.  I agree with your sentiments and your doubts.  

I am curious about your take on Edwards staying in.  Do you think he is hoping to play a role in determining the nominee, if it stays close? Is he going to function as an attack dog to chew on HRC's leg in order to help Obama?  Is he just so committed that he can't let go and doesn't want to disappoint his passionate followers?  Does his staying in help Clinton?


by upper left on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:45:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

I don't have any insight at all into Edwards' actual thinking, other than to hang in there until the money runs out and hope to pick up momentum somewhere.  I don't think he's in it just as a stalking horse for either candidate, although people will always talk about Trippi being pro-Obama.  Keep in mind that Elizabeth still has her situation and it wouldn't be likely for him to stay in the race simply because he's got nothing better to do.

One thing you'll hear from a lot of us Edwards supporters is how important we think it is for him to stay him simply to keep his message alive and to influence the dialogue.  When I listen to both Hillary and Obama, I hear them picking up little pieces of the stuff that's working for Edwards.  I think his message of economic justice is important and you see voters focusing on those issues more and more as the economy heads south (which is likely to continue through November).  Win or lose, I like the direction he's moving the party.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:57:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards Will Fight For The Nomination To The End (none / 0)

Upper Left, if you saw Edwards NH concession speech last night (or saw his last NH commercial)...well...it is clear that Edwards is going to fight for the nomination all the way to the convention.  He will be fighting to the end. Does a true fighter quit after the second round of a fight?  If so, were they actually a fighter to begin with?

Edwards staying in is actually the principled thing to do because Edwards is correct: less than 1% of the electorate has voted.  Additionally, actual elections should decide elections, not the media, not pundits, and not polling. I hope we can agree that continuing to run is the principled (but not traditional) thing to do.

As I have been saying for some time now, Edwards will either receive the nomination, or he will decide who the nominee is (as between Obama or Clinton.)  Either way, John Edwards will have a hand in determining the course of US history.  And that puts John Edwards in a pretty decent position now doesn't it?

If you are a Clinton on Obama supporter, you get to speculate, I suppose, on how Edwards staying in the race helps, or hurts, your candidate's chances.  I do not think the answer to that question is straightforward.  I think in certain states, Edwards staying in will help Obama, and in certain other states, Edwards staying in will help Clinton.  

And, of course, Edwards staying in will help Edwards win the nomination.  Do not forget that Intrade had Obama at a 98% chance of winning NH before the voters of that state had their say, and then Obama lost. That fact tells you what?


by Demo37 on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 02:04:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

I truly wish I could believe Sen. Clinton's win had nothing to do with the lies she used to misrepresent Sen. Obama's pro-choice record.  I'm talking about this and this.


by Satya on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:51:35 AM EST

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

If the Obama fans did not waste energy laughing at Hillary for the welling up the eyes moment, maybe they would have had more energy exposing the pro choice misrepresentations.

Let's face it. The Obama supporters did not do themselves proud this weekend on this blog and in certain parts of the media. Same goes to the Edwards camp.

I am not shocked by the NH turn of events.


by Pravin on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 01:22:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

Thank you for confirming that Sen. Clinton misrepresented Sen. Obama's pro-choice record.

I hope you realize that not all Obama supporters were ripping Hillary for her tears.  For example, my specific comment to one was, "You sure cover the meaty issues, don't you?"
http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/1/7/15 3254/2918/4#4

I also defended Pres. Clinton against some overeager attacks:

It may sound contrived to compare Sen. Clinton against Nelson Mandela.  But I don't think this is a case of Bill losing it.  He admires and is devoted to helping his wife win this election and that is all this reflects.  It just speaks to the depth of his feeling about this.

http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/1/7/12 220/70307/13#13

But what is missing is more Clinton supporters that admit the truth about Sen. Clinton's lies concerning Obama's pro-choice history and positions.  Instead susanhu spread the lie in some of the most reprehensible garbage I've ever seen over 4 different blogs.  Somehow I don't think she has the integrity to write retractions.

And I would like to hear a Clinton supporter admit Pres. Clinton is lying not only about Sen. Obama's interview about the Iraq war at the national convention in 2004 but about media coverage of it.  Clinton supporters even called Obama's words "pandering".  But anyone with a modicum of honesty knows you don't discredit your party's nominations at the time party unity is needed the most at one of the party's most public showings.  No, even Sen. Obama's desire to get Bush and Cheney out of office motivated him to tone down his criticism.  See this page which catches Pres. Clinton in the lie.  http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/ 2008/01/08/obama-responds-to-bill-clinto ns-accusation-of-not-having-been-vetted- by-media/


by Satya on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 02:26:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

I regard the two most often mentioned reasons as invalid myself (not even speaking of the sour grapish "Wilder effect" one mentioned also.)    

Independents:

Indies showed up for Democrats to the tune of 60% to 40% Republicans.  Previous polling had suggested that due to McCain's and Huckabee's appeal to Undeclareds we would only be getting around 55% of the Indy vote, but we exceeded those expectations and did very well with Independents.   The problem for Obama here was that he did not get ENOUGH of the Independent vote, that Hillary was very strong with that demogroup in her own right.

The emotional moment:

The exit poll showed that Clinton and Obama were basically even amongst the group of voters who decided within the last 3 days.  Clinton held a strong advantage in the group that had decided (and stuck with their decision) over a month ago.  Last-minute events or statements did not have the effect that we are now told they had.  

Clinton's support amongst natural Democratic constituency groups carried the day.  Union members, working-class, single women, etc.  Polls were wrong because they did not account for the depth and strength of her support in the state, were seemingly adjusted across the board to duplicate Iowa's turnout and demo's, which did not duplicate.  

That bodes well for Hillary moving forward, as Obama can't win without winning amongst Democrats (which he has not done yet) in almost every contest moving forward.  Independents and Republicans are barred from participating in Democratic primaries from here on out in almost every contest.


by georgep on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:52:24 AM EST

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

I thought Obama won by like 1% among Democrats in Iowa.

Something to keep in mind is that in states where Indys don't get to vote in primaries, a lot of the same people who are left-leaning Indys in NH are going to be registered Democrats instead.

The challenge for Obama is that while he has strong ideological appeal among Democratic types (he does very well with liberals, particularly latte-drinkers like myself), Hillary evokes strong partisan appeal among Democrats which is very difficult to shake.  Obama needs to keep bringing out a lot of first-timers to compete with all the veteran Democrats who are sticking with the Clintons no matter what.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 12:04:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

I believe Clinton won Democrats by 1%, but have to look it up to be sure.  Regardless, Obama has always done better amongst Independents than Democrats.  I agree that in some states the left-leaning Indies are perhaps registered Democrats, but often that is not the case, with Independent being the top designation for most in many states.  They won't be allowed to vote, which will make a big difference.   In 2000 McCain, due to his appeal to Independents, did very well in states with open primaries, but had no good showings in closed primary states.   I see the same thing duplicating here.  Obama  will be competetive in states with open primaries, will not do as well in states where primaries are Democrats-only, IMO.


by georgep on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:22:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

Obama beat her by a point among Dems in IA according to the CNN entrance polls.


by souvarine on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:32:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

Welcome back to the discussion, georggep. You said,

"Polls were wrong because they did not account for the depth and strength of her support in the state, were seemingly adjusted across the board to duplicate Iowa's turnout and demo's, which did not duplicate."  

You seem to be saying that the polls were wrong because they were wrong.  That is a less than satisfying answer.  It seems unlikely that all the pollsters would have badly miscalculated the demographics of the turn-out.  Do you have any evidence to support this argument?  

It seems to me that the most likely explanation is last minute movement that went undetected. I'm not trying to be argumentative just trying to wrap my brain arond a plausable explanation.

Congrats, to your gal.


by upper left on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 12:10:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

..just trying to wrap my brain arond a plausable explanation.

There are several components to the explanation. I'll only bore you with one major part of the explantion:

Intense, visceral anger at the collective villification of one of America's most respected women leaders and America's only living two-term Democratic President.


by hwc on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 12:53:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

Your comment may be true.  Do you think that the vilification was done by Obama?  Or by the media? Or by the actions of the Clinton campaign?

I will tell you as someone who supported BC in 92 and 96, and who greatly respects HRC's intelligence and perseverance, I have a a great deal of visceral anger at Team Hillary.  

Let me explain why.  I believe that BC and HRC, after having been on the receiving end of so many smears in the 90s, should understand the destructiveness of the "Rovian" approach to politics.

Instead, they have repeatedly engaged in similar attacks.  I could post the entire laundry list, but if you are honest, I don't need to.  I find the Clinton political style deeply troubling and occasionally reprehensible.  I find it highly ironic that Hillary, who is considered by most observers has run the most aggressively negative campaign, should be the recipient of such an outpouring of sympathy.  

As a man who graduated with a minor in Women's Studies in the 80s and someone who considers myself to be a strong supporter of feminist causes, I definitely think it is well past time for this country to have a woman President.  

However, I cannot, and will not, support Democrats who attack other Democrats with distortions, misrepresentations, and other elements of the "dark arts."  It is unfair. It does great damage to our party, and I believe passionately that in the long run it is a loosing strategy for our party and our country.


by upper left on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 01:27:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

You conveniently forget that Saint Obama kicked off his campaign with the infamous "1984 ad" demonizing Hillary Clinton, while Clinton spent the first nine months of the campaign praising all of the Democratic candidates and focusing her guns on the Republicans.


by hwc on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 01:40:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

1) Holding the candidate responsible for the actions of one over zealous supporter, who had no direct connection to Obama or Axelrod, is overreaching in my opinion.

2) Nobody said Obama was a saint.  That is a straw-man argument.  What I said is that most observers agree that HRC has run be far the most negative campaign of the top Dems..


by upper left on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 02:02:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

1) Holding the candidate responsible for the actions of one over zealous supporter, who had no direct connection to Obama or Axelrod, is overreaching in my opinion.

I see. So you think it was just a coincidence that a "loose cannon" on Obama's internet media staff produced a campaign ad that signaled the exact narrative the Obama campaign would use to attack Clinton? And, that Robert Gibbs (of Howard Dean/Osama bin Laden smear ad fame) had no fingerprints on this campaign kickoff? Let me guess? Obama hired Gibbs because he sings fantastic harmony parts on the chorus of Kumbaya?


by hwc on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 02:16:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

Um, the main narrative of the Obama campaign was pretty well established by then and it wasn't too hard to see it.


by Satya on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 02:31:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

I think the evidence is very circumstantial.

The guy who created the ad reportedly did so on his home computer using his personal software.

He was based in Virginia when the Obama campaign was in Chicago.

Gibbs worked for Kerry.  Many of Kerry's top staff came to work for Obama.  Much has been made of that one ad, I am not aware of Gibb's entire resume, do you know if he has a history of such work?

The Clinton's are considered to be the masters of oppo research, the planted story, and the surrogate attack.  We have seen plenty of all three in this race.


by upper left on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 02:35:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

The point stands, though.  Replace the early "1984 ad" with a number of early issues:

- Lincoln bedroom dig

- Punjab

- Bill Clinton "profiteering" on 9/11 memo

etc.


by georgep on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:36:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

Are you really going to try to suggest that your candidate has not been by far the most negative of the top three Dems, or that Obama has been the least negative?

The media agree with me, and surveys of voters in Iowa and NH agree with me.

It is bad enough that her campaign does this sort of stuff.  It is even worse when you try to deny it.

"Lying is bad.  Believing your own lies is dangerous."


by upper left on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:06:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

I find it amazing how incredibly stubborn and self-serving most Obama supporters are.  If it is not instant charges of racism it is the yelling that anyone who disagrees with you is a liar.   I would say that is pretty distasteful.

I would absolutely say that Obama's campaign has been at the forefront of the nasty.   I respect that you disagree, but I would not try to shout you down (as you appear to be doing here) with "liar, liar, lies everywhere" just because I don't share your adulation of Obama and think that he is every bit the typical politician (who will resort to nasty tactics) that he has shown himself to be - at least to me.


by georgep on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:38:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

Oh, and "the MEDIA agree with me"?   The MEDIA?  As in Maureen Dowd, Chris Matthews, Tucker Carlson, Tim Russert?   THAT media?


by georgep on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:41:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

I am trying hard to find some way to respond to you that isn't disrespectful.  You and I have disagreed about many things over the past year, but I have generally felt that while you were very staunch in your opinions you have usually been reasonable.  You do not post a lot of snark.  You usually refrain from cheap shots and unsupported assertions.

I am however, having a really hard time with your response.  Obama barely even mentions Hillary by name.  Hillary has called him naive.  She has called his character into question.  Her surrogates have trumpeted the Muslim meme; questioned whether he was a cocaine dealer;  pounded relentlessly on any connection he has had to anyone who has had any questions.  She has made misleading statements about his position on choice. BC has tried to distort his consistent opposition to the war. I could go on for pages.

The assertion that he has been "nastier" strikes me as completely disingenuous or delusional.  I cannot think of any neutral party who would agree with your position.  I think that should give you pause.  I am sorry for the tone of this post, I simply don't know how else to respond.
 


by upper left on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 02:29:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

You seem to be sort of inconsistent here.  You start off by declaring, as an absolute, that you will not support any Democrat who uses misrepresentations against another Democrat.  When it's pointed out that Obama does it too, suddenly everything becomes relative and the salient point is that Obama isn't as bad as Hillary.

I frankly don't think you would support Hillary even if she ran the cleanest campaign on earth, because you have other good reasons for supporting Obama.  There's a wide gulf between your impassioned assertion that negative campaigning is an absolute disqualifier and the reality that everyone does it.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 04:06:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

Everyone does it to a greatly varying degree. The degree matters.

Your comments remind me of a long back and forth I had with a Clinton supporter yesterday about lobbyists and campaign finance reform.  He was giving Obama a hard time about the state lobbyist who was one of Obama Co-Chairs in NH.

I said I found it hypocritical for HRC to give Obama a hard time on this issue when she has extensive lobbyist involvement in her campaign, is accepting money from Federal lobbyists, accepting PAC money and has refused to disclose her bundlers.  The guy came back at me with all this detailed research about PAC contributions Obama had accepted in his run for the Senate.

Every time I would try to get him to admit that no matter how imperfect Obama might be, and yes there are some inconsistencies in his record, he has been light years better than Clinton on ethics reform and campaign finance reform.  I think I tried to get him to address my point five or six times.  Each time he would dredge up another minor transgression on Obama's part.

The point is that just as Obama has been far better on ethics reform and CF reform, he has been far better on the issue of negative campaigning.  Is he a Boy Scout? No.  Is there a significant quantitative and qualitative difference in his use of negative campaigning compared to Team Hillary?  Absolutely.

The same holds true for Obama's efforts to reduce the level of partisan bitterness.  Will it go away?  Will Repubs suddenly stop engaging in dirty tricks and stop being obstructionist? Of course not.  But, over time, by showing a willingness to engage in good faith negotiations combined with an ability to go over the Repubs heads directly to the voters, the level of partisan bickering can be reduced.

I believe it is fundamentally dishonest for Obama opponents to nit-pick every tiny problem while not giving Obama any credit for trying to clean-up and improve our political process.  Of course Obama will be imperfect, he is trying to win elections under a badly flawed system.  

You are right that I have other reasons for preferring Obama.  I won't bother to enumerate them here.  However, I do care passionately about the political process.  I have been advocating public financing of elections for over 30 years and have been a member of Common Cause for most of that time.  The Clinton's apparent belief that the only way to compete with the Repubs is to "beat them at their own game" is 1# on my list of reasons why I will only support HRC if I have to.
 


by upper left on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:32:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

I think the vilification was widespread among the media, the Obama camp (as I noted in an earlier diary) and the Edwards campaign (though my personal observation is that his supporters spoke against him for that).

All of the campaigns are engaging in "dark arts" against each-other. The Clinton campaign has been least effective with it lately, the Obama campaign are past masters of the techniques and have used them expertly for the past year. I can't really hold it against any of them (though I do), they will need the skills in the general.


by souvarine on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 01:49:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

I believe that your characterization, "they all do it, therefore it doesn't count," is false and misleading.

Obama is reported (see the recent profile in Newsweek) to have gotten extremely angry over the Clinton (D-Punjab) fiasco.  He told his entire staff that he did not want that type of sh*t done in his name.  I do not think the attacks have been similar quantitatively or qualitatively.

Do you care to give greater detail to your charge?


by upper left on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 02:09:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

Lincoln Bedroom, D-Punjab, Clinton paid off on 9/11, Bill's affairs, sure, Obama got "angry" about these. But he didn't do anything about it and the smears keep coming.

The contrast with Clinton is illustrative, her NH (!) campaign co-chair speculates about Obama's drug  use and she fires him, some volunteer coordinators forward hateful emails and they are immediately shown the door.

Talk versus walk.


by souvarine on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 02:29:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

contrast Obama's reaction to that against how Pres. Clinton and Sen. Clinton lied about Obama's pro-choice record and his statement on Iraq  (see my long comment above).


by Satya on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 02:29:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama on choice (none / 0)

I've commented extensively on Obama's choice record, I see no evidence that Clinton has lied. They are not saying he is pro-life, they are saying he is relatively weak on choice, certainly compared to Hillary. The evidence that this is true is clear from his record and from his own campaign site, his position on choice is relegated to an unlinked sub-site.

The attacks on Obama's choice record and health care proposals are legitimate, they are not "dark arts".


by souvarine on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 03:51:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on choice (none / 0)

See my 2 comments at this diary that show clearly Sen. Clinton lied in a mailer about Sen. Obama's pro-choice record just a few days before the primary.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/1/8/91917 /66465

 The diary itself makes the case with its own link, but my link may be easier to follow.


by Satya on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 04:24:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on choice (none / 0)

I'm aware that the Obama surrogate and IL PP leader Pam Sutherland has defended Obama. I am also aware that IL NOW and NARAL have not, that National PP has not, and that Obama's colleagues in the IL Senate think Sutherland's explanation is CYA. But regardless, the record is there, Clinton's mailer pointed it out, and Obama is free to explain it as he wishes. You have yet to show me a lie, all you have done is disagreed with the mailer:

Seven times he had the opportunity to stand up against Republican anti-choice legislation in the Illinois State Senate. Seven times he voted "present" -- not "yes" or no," but "present." Being there is not enough to protect choice.

You claim that being there is enough, that it was a strategy, and you are entitled to your opinion, as is Senator Clinton.


by souvarine on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 04:48:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on choice (none / 0)

People worked with Sen. Obama on that voting strategy and they know the truth.  IF you read that you saw that more than one person backed up Sen. Obama on the truth that he took a hit on his record in order to help a wider strategy to defeat that bill.  Also the fact that the source I quoted was originally from 2004 strengthens the case that none of it was manufactured (in case in your denial you were going to also assert that fantasy).

I actually source some witnesses at the time and you source nothing but "you are entitled to your opinion, as is Senator Clinton."

You can continue all you want to describe it as "a matter of opinion".  It is the kind of lie Sen. Clinton has by now convinced herself of and its obvious you have too.  You are lying to yourself.

Indeed, history will show that this campaign by the Clintons is built heavily on falsehood as analysis comes forward like when we watch Pres. Clinton run through one of his favorite lies:

http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/ 2008/01/08/obama-responds-to-bill-clinto ns-accusation-of-not-having-been-vetted- by-media/

I've seen some garbage posted by you here at mydd but I thought I would make a good faith effort to discuss a serious issue based on fact and some documentation.

I won't trouble you again.  I'm done with you because people in this country that live with these delusions are the main reason we are in this mess.  It's the same kind of politically induced self delusion that folks bought into when we attacked Iraq.


by Satya on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 06:07:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on choice (none / 0)

Your attempt to justify something that is clearly a misrepresentation is truly offensive. This is the slippery slope to Rovian politics.

Another example is BC's repeated attempts to distort Obama's consistent opposition to the war in Iraq.  BC takes one sentence of a statement that was obviously an attempt to be gracious and supportive of the Dem ticket, and grabs it out of context to try to achieve his political purposes.  It is fundamentally dishonest.  It is beneath the dignity of a POTUS.

The fact that you and others attempt to justify this bullsh*t is amazing.  It is fundamentally intellectually dishonest.  I run into this type of behavior from HRC supporters all the time.

How can you act this way with a straight face?  I guess the only thing you care about is winning.  I won't play board games with people who cheat, and I sure am not going to play games over the future of our country with people who want to lie and cheat.


by upper left on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:46:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on choice (none / 0)

PLEASE.  Let's keep that type of heat off the discussion here.  I don't see anything in souvarine's post that is as objectionable as you and Sayta make it out to be.  I, too, don't buy that Obama is the ultimate dove on Iraq.  After all, he argued vehemently and passionately against the Kerry amendment, which was designed to "set a date certain," went as far as taking to the Senate floor twice to argue the opposing point of view, and with it helping to defeat Kerry's bill.  He instead argued for an adoption of a wishy-washy nothing of a bill that basically asked George W. Bush meekly to "please do the right thing."    He also voted for every funding request that came along, ending the string on the same vote Hillary voted no on.  

I think his own comments in regards to how Obama WOULD have possibly voted are not out of line with reality of that day (the war was not as unpopular as it is today.)   We shall never know, but Obama's votes and speeches on the subject seem to show a politician who has seen the reality of the day and made a choice to be pro-military and pro seeing the war through, which is now coming back to bite him in a way, since he is no Kucinich on the matter.


by georgep on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:06:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on choice (none / 0)

I have probably posted on this topic a hundred times in the past year.

It seems pretty simple to me,  The question of whether or not to get into the war was one issue.  Obama opposed it, Hillary voted for the AUMF.

The question of when and how to get out is an entirely different subject.  Hillary and Obama have had similar position over much of the past three years, although Obama' proposal for phased withdrawal came before Hillary's proposal. Obama's position has been that we need to be as careful about getting out as we were reckless getting in.

What I find highly offensive is the repeated attempts by the Clinton camp to blur and confuse these two different issues.  Hillary was, in my judgement, wrong about the first issue.  She showed poor judgment in trusting Bush and the neo-cons not to take the AUMF and run with it.  I believe she knew full well what she was doing and did so as a matter of political expedience.

Trying to pretend that because she and Obama have taken similar approach to the question of getting out negates their distinctly different positions on the first, strikes me as deceptive.  I am particularly bothered by BC repeated use of an out of context statement.


by upper left on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 02:45:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on choice (none / 0)

I am glad that you admit that the mailer was not a lie but merely a "misrepresentation". At least you are more honest than satya.

I assume you concede that Obama did in fact vote "present" on seven anti-choice bills. So I take it that you think the mailer's claim, "Being there is not enough to protect choice," is a misrepresentation. Since in each case the legislation passed I think we can agree that "present" was not enough.

Neither Clinton nor the mailer claim that Obama is anti-choice, just that he could have done more. Perhaps you or Obama have an argument that refutes the point, but to date I have not heard it. A dubious strategy that failed is not enough.

Moving on to your new topic, Iraq, I cannot abide your attacks on Bill Clinton. He pointed out that if Obama wishes to claim that he has consistently opposed the war then he must grant that Senator Clinton has consistently opposed the war since the AUMF, because their statements and votes since then have been very similar. He further makes the case that since Chuck Hagel, the only Republican to consistently oppose the war, is an author of the AUMF resolution, that a vote for it was not as cut and dried as has been presented.

If you have some logical argument to refute my points on the mailer or Bill Clinton's point on Iraq I would love to hear it, in fact I would be happy if you addressed any of my points at all, but so far all you appear to be capable of is name calling.


by souvarine on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:27:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

more detail: Katrina? (none / 0)

Obama campaign spokesman Jesse Jackson Jr. on Clinton's "tears". NH knocked the Obama campaign off their negative game, this attack is qualitatively the worst and dumbest I've seen.

The point isn't "therefore it doesn't count", it is that if you are going to rule people out over negative attacks then at least be consistent.


by souvarine on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 03:43:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: more detail: Katrina? (none / 0)

I think JJjrs attempts to spin this in this manner is insensitive and politically dumb.  I do not condone it and I cannot imagine Obama making that kind of comment.  I hope he distances himself from this comment.

However, in addition to surrogate attacks and planted stories, I am talking about misrepresentation that has come directly from the mouths of BC and HRC.  That is qualitatively different.


by upper left on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:56:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

I did not say the polls were wrong because "they were wrong."  I stated that the polls underpolled Clinton's true women support, which came out in droves in NH.  I doubt a model exists for that type of women turnout, hence the discrepancy.  I believe we will see that repeated over and over (underpolling of Clinton's true women support) in states until polling models are updated to reflect that specific factor unique to Clinton only.


by georgep on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

The exit polls from Iowa indicate that Obama beat Hillary by a point among registered democrates. That's within the margin of error, of course, but still. Also, as Chris Bowers has emphasized this past week, the exit polls from IA show that Obama's strongest base of support comes from liberals and progressives. So, I think Obama will be quite competitive in closed primaries now that he has removed Clinton's front-runner status. He will win SC (which is open to indies) and stands a decent shot at NV (not sure if NV is open to independents). Clinton will probably keep FL, but we'll see. Feb. 5 will be very exciting and competitive. I just hope its a clean fight (wrt the candidates and supporters here and elsewhere).

Here's a link to msnbc's exit poll: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21225980/

Good to have you back, George.


by DPW on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 12:17:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

Sorry to be redundant. Steve must've posted his comment while I was writing this.


by DPW on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 12:19:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

Let's be honest for a moment here:  Clinton led Iowa exit polls, but fell behind due to second choicers.  We also know that both Biden and Richardson instructed their precinct captains to funnel their non-viable support (where they did not get 15%) to Obama, to keep the race from being over before it started.   As you know, in addition to this being a caucus in the first place, the second-choice allocation is as unique a way to tally up votes as can be had.  It enabled Obama to move ahead of Clinton, who by all accounts had the lead on first votes, and we can definitely surmise from that that she also led amongst Democrats, before the reallocation of second choice votes with the help of Richardson's/Biden's precinct captains occured.  

I think NH is much more typical for how we see voters react moving forward, as it is a primary (open to anyone who cares to cast a vote,) with the caveat that it is an open primary, which allows for Independent voter participation.  I believe Clinton will be strongest in Democrats-only contests, which happen to make up a majority of nomination contests.  

BTW, already counting SC in the bag for Obama?  NH has not taught anything?


by georgep on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:53:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

I also just learned from Chuck Todd at First Read that 15 of the 22 Feb. 5 states are open to independents. I assume that's correct, but I'm not really sure.


by DPW on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 12:45:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

wb George


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 01:14:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

There's one thing that people seem to continually miss: The economy was the number one issue. And that's probably one of the reasons why Obama's appeal is more to the "liberals" than to to working class. The Univ of Chicago economists just don't cut it with these people.

Also, outside of SC and perhaps MS, AL & LA, Obama will probably have a hard time winning in the south.

NV I think will be close if he gets the culinary union endorsement.

Obama's plan, reported on CNN, to win is to get Republican women and independent men to vote for him. I don't see how that helps him in the closed primaries unless he's already writing them off.

Also, don't forget the hispanic vote which tilts heavily to Hillary.

This could go on for a while.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 01:27:50 PM EST

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

Do you honestly think that most working class Dems know or care about where one of Obama's economic advisers come from?  

Obama is currently winning Virginia in trial heat polls against the Repubs.  I do not believe that  southern Democrats, in 2008, are anywhere near as racist as your post seems to imply.


by upper left on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 02:16:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

Actually I don't think that they care where they come it's the product that they produce that's the problem. All this "let's come together" and I'll work with Republicans sounds like he likes the economic policies that the GOP has.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 03:34:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mea Culpa (none / 0)

It's not that they're racist so much as they've seen what happens to black candidates for federal office:
See,
Majette, Denise
Ford, Harold Jr.

And the "wilder effect" started in VA. I think that VA has changed but I don't know how much. I mean George Allen lost by what 7000 votes in a year that was great for Dems. And he was an obvious racist, disgusting lynching noose hanging in his office and everything. That doesn't give me much faith for the general election.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 03:38:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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